Jun 9, 2009

Time will Tell

APA 1998: "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality."

Recent APA statement in a brochure called "Answers to Your Questions for a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality":

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles...."

What I want to know is, why should I believe a bi-sexual who tells me some people are born homosexual and that is OK, but others are born transgendered so they must be changed? But Lesbianism does not last.


jelly said...

But Lesbianism does not last.

lol, it's lasted pretty darn long for me and I certainly don't plan on switching teams EVER!

rob clemenz @ saintsforsinners.com said...

Patricia Clarkson has a unique video that tiuches on some of these issues. she is very eloquent. It's on You Tube.

Renee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Renee said...

removed above post to edit...

I had two close friends in high school, one gay and one simply desperate and lonely and has a relationship with a girl. Her girlfriend, previously had a boy friend and she never had a boy friend. As for my friend who was gay, rather girls were simply always his friend. I feel really bad because I think he really desired relationships with men, not just sexual terms, simply male friendship bonding no matter their orientation.

You know how I feel about our discussion about marriage, but one thing that needs to be addressed it the hyper-masculinity/femininity in children. Boys and girls that don't fit these ultra stereotypes can be easily brushed off. Personally I don't have a lot of gender based toys in my home, I limit the tween stuff for my daughter and keep to imaginary play for the boys. Also terms like 'sissy', f*g, and other terms do need to be removed out of the vocabulary.

It seems now one of the consequences of dealing with different labels for people's sexuality, that we will then create new labels with heterosexuality. Does everyone have to come out with a 'label', is it required to label oneself? I've never came out as 'straight', does a people who is gay have to come out. Unless someone is actually interested in having a relationship with you, is it that person's business?

I had an in-law asked me if one of my relatives was gay. He's close to 40 and unmarried. Instead of an 'yes' or a 'no', I asked if it was annoying to her when people constantly ask if her brother who was in his 40s and unmarried was gay? It did.

I don't believe there is one cause for homosexual behavior, people may engage in such behavior for various reasons. I do believe there are simply just a few for the actual orientation of being a homosexual person though.

Marie Tremblay said...

Paul M posted this at his Blog:

Marie, I read the comment you forwarded in an email and which was left at Defend the Faith by "Jelly." Her statement constitutes an acknowledgement that homosexual and lesbian acts (and the lifestyle in general) are not genetically determined but rather are free and voluntary acts.

Speaking of her lesbianism, she writes, "I certainly don't plan on switching teams EVER!" This statement reveals more than she realizes. You see, a free act supposes two or more eligibile alternatives, at least the alternatives of acting or not acting.

A voluntary act, as the product of of an individual's own will guided by his or her own reason, is the actual exercise of the individual's mastership over his or her conduct.

Unless the human will is free, a person cannot choose between right and wrong, is not responsible for what he or she does, and cannot direct the course of his or her life.

When "Jelly" writes, "I certainly don't plan on switching teams EVER!," she is acknowledging that she is making a choice, a free and voluntary act of the will. And writes the word "ever" in capital letters to highlight the fact that she intends to never change. She is free to choose between the two alternatives of acting or not acting. In her case, of "switching teams" or not "switching teams." Of remaining in a lesbian lifestyle or abandoning it.

"Jelly" is acknowledging that it is her choice to remain in a lesbian lifestyle. This isn't a question of genetics. It is a free and voluntary act of the will.

Renee said...

Heterosexual acts are also acts of free will also, someone can't help if they not interested in the opposite sex. As someone who practices Natural Family Planning, each time I with my husband us one of free will.

The term 'switching teams' usually doesn't mean going up to bat, you can be on a team and hang out in the dug out. My husband has an relative, that by all means is gay. She's older, she never 'came out', but rather she always has girlfriends and to my children her girlfriend is simply 'her friend'. To my children its perfectly OK never to have married and to have a roommate share a house. Since they are both older when they become involved, both with their own assets and at least my husband's relative has a large extended family, it doesn't make sense to have many of the marital statutes apply.

We need differing sets of laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships.

Marie Tremblay said...

Jelly meant to say that she has no intention of leaving the lesbian lifestyle. That's why she said "I certainly don't plan on switching teams ever." This is an act of the will. To plan something is to engage in a choice. If this decision includes "going up to bat" as you put it, or engaging in homosexual acts, then such acts are also free and voluntary.

You assert that, "The term 'switching teams' usually doesn't mean going up to bat, you can be on a team and hang out in the dug out." I rather doubt that most people who refer to themselves as "gay' and "lesbian" are simply hanging out in the dug out. Instead, it is safe to assume most are playing the field - at least to some extent (to continue with the baseball imagery).

If Jelly isn't actually engaging in a homosexual relationship - "going up to bat", why would she be so adamant about not "switching teams" - ever? If she isn't engaging in homosexual acts, why make a point of adamantly stating that she has no intention of "switching teams"? What would be the point? Whether heterosexual or homosexual, she wouldn't be engaging in sex. So it would't matter would it?

Renee said...

My concern with using lifestyle, is that not all aspects of a same-sex relationship are wrong. The teachings of the Catholic Church though isn't that everyone must be heterosexual, but rather be within the teachings of the Church which means respect for the procreative nature of human sexuality though our behavior.

Unless a homosexual couple says they're married or openly talks about sexual acts, I do think its best not to focus on homosexual acts but rather any chaste aspect of the relationship or maybe talk about how every mother and father should loved with child within marriage.

As to Paul's comment

"I rather doubt that most people who refer to themselves as "gay' and "lesbian" are simply hanging out in the dug out. Instead, it is safe to assume most are playing the field - at least to some extent (to continue with the baseball imagery)."

We can't and shouldn't imply anything, much as we should be assuming male and female heterosexuals are 'playing the field'.The whole baseball analogy doesn't make sense anyways with homosexuality, both teams are wearing the same uniform.It's OK to be in the dugout, we live in such a empty hyper sexualized culture it makes it seem if you're not having or perusing it there is something wrong with you. For us as Catholic and for biology for that matter, human sexuality is not present in us for recreational pursuits, but as we know creating human life through loving making.

Anyways back to assumptions. We wouldn't want to approach a Catholic couple and scorn them for not having children, only to realize they been trying for years and had two miscarriage or to imply Natural Family Planning methods don't work, because a Catholic couple has 4 or more children.

Marie Tremblay said...

Renee says, "Unless a homosexual couple says they're married or openly talks about sexual acts, I do think its best not to focus on homosexual acts."

That's her opinion. But she would be wrong. If homosexuality is to be accepted as normal, it needs to appear like heterosexuality. For this reason, the homosexual movement (often with the help of some who consider themselves to be "Catholic") creates the myth of homosexual "monogamy" where stable "couples" keep a matrimonial-like "fidelity" similar to that of true marriage. However a relationship based on deviated sentiment and tendency cannot create the conditions for fidelity found in true monogamous marriage. The few homosexual partners who maintain stable links are exceptions. Moreover, stability in the homosexual world does not mean fidelity. Indeed, the "monogamy" myth runs contrary to the homosexual experience. In a study of young Dutch homosexuals, Dr. Maria Xiridou of the American Municipal Health Service reported that relationships on the average last between 1-1/2 years. She also reported that each homosexual had on average eight other partners per year besides the "stable" one. (Maria Xiridou, et al., "The contribution of steady and casual partnerships to the incidence of HIV infection among homosexual men in Amsterdam," AIDS, (2003) 17(7), p. 1031).

Paul never said, "I rather doubt that most people who refer to themselves as "gay' and "lesbian" are simply hanging out in the dug out. Instead, it is safe to assume most are playing the field - at least to some extent (to continue with the baseball imagery)." That was me. Renee responds by asserting that, "We can't and shouldn't imply anything." Nonsense, the promiscuity of the homosexual lifestyle borders on the unimaginable. Statistics, homosexual memoirs and biographies all point to promiscuity with abysmal social and public health consequences. (See for example, Alan P. Bell and Martin S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, New York: Simon and Shuster, 1978).

The problems start with perception. Homosexuals simply do not see promiscuity as harmful. In the words of homosexual writer Lars Eighner: "I see nothing wrong with gay promiscuity. I think it is one of the most positive aspects of gay life that people of very different circumstances can achieve intimacy very quickly." ("Why I Write Gay Erotica").

Thomas E. Schmidt, Director of the Westminster Institute, Santa Barbara, notes that "promiscuity among homosexual men is not a mere stereotype, and it is not merely the majority experience - it is virtually the only experience." (Thomas E. Schmidt, Straight & Narrow? Compassion & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate, Downers Grove, Ill; InterVarsity Press, 1995, p. 108).

The best research proves you wrong Renee.

John Ansley said...

Right Marie. Social scientists Robert T. Michael, John H. Gagnon, Edward O. Laumann and Gina Kolata carried out an extensive survey on American sexual behavior and published their work in 1994. The authors comment on the investigations done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1982, when AIDS first appeared, and conclude: "Gay men with AIDS interviewed in the early 1980's reported they had on average 1,100 partners in their lifetimes and some had had many more." 9Robert T. Michael, et al., Sex in America: A Definitive Survey; Boston: Little, Brown and Co., 1994, p. 209).

There is something else that Renee said that concerns me. She wrote, "We need differing sets of laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships."

This sounds like nothing more than an attempt to justify same-sex "marriage," whether under this name or the euphemistically labelled "civil unions" or "domestic partnerships." But the acceptance of any of these contentions will redefine the concept of marriage in total disregard for its true nature. If this happens, law loses its foundation in the natural order and right reason and thus its legitimacy. As St. Augustine says: "that which is not just seems to be no law at all" (De Lib. Arb. i,5).

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in its document titled "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons," had this to say: "The inevitable consequence of legal recognition of homosexual unions would be the redefinition of marriage, which would become, in its legal status, an institution devoid of essential reference to factors linked to heterosexuality; for example, procreation and raising children. If, from the legal standpoint, marriage between a man and a woman were to be considered just one possible form of marriage, the concept of marriage would undergo a radical transformation, with grave detriment to the common good. By putting homosexual unions on a legal plane analogous to to that of marriage and the family, the State acts arbitrarily and in contradiction with its duties." (No. 8).

It would appear that Renee is dissenting from this authoritative teaching when she asserts, "We need differing sets of laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships."

How unfortunate.

Renee said...

I'm called a bigot by gays on one side, and a accused of dissent on the other.

There is a big difference between the a homosexual act and a person who may be a homosexual! People who simply aren't interested in the opposite sex, are not in themselves sinners.

I reviewed my posts, and they are consistent with the teachings of the Church.

I compiled many issues regrading people who experience same-sex feelings on my old blog to search.

The Catholic Church actually has a ministry for homosexuals and it isn't a ex-gay ministry either. In fact Courage Ministries held its annual retreat in Boston last August and Cardinal Sean celebrated Mass. Courage ministries started at the beginning of the AIDS crisis for homosexuals in the early 80s, a place where they live within friendships without being tempted into a sinful sexual acts.

"The Role of Courage in the Spiritual Life of Chastity for SSA persons
by Fr. Jim Lloyd, CSP

Since each meetings opens with the reading of the Five Goals of Courage, no one is under any misconception why he is there. Specifically everyone is reminded that this particular meeting is to help persons suffering from SSA who wish to achieve the Chastity so required by The Lord. Any other reason is a waste of everyone’s time. These are not cruising, social or discussion groups. Courage groups are strictly spiritual aids to help persons who wish to achieve chastity. The group norm is that every one present shares the common goal

The following five goals of Courage were created by the members themselves, when Courage was founded. The goals are read at the start of each meeting and each member is called to practice them in daily life.

1. Live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality. (Chastity)
2. Dedicate ones life to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist. (Prayer and Dedication)
3. Foster a spirit of fellowship in which all may share thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone. (Fellowship)
4. Be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a chaste Christian life and in doing so provide encouragement to one another in forming and sustaining them. (Support)
5. Live lives that may serve as good examples to others. (Good Example"

Renee said...

From Cardinal Sean regarding Courage retreat.

"The next day, on Sunday morning, I celebrated the closing Mass of the 2008 Courage Conference at the Marian Spritual Center in Medway. Courage is an organization for men who struggle with same-sex attraction, but seek to live their lives consistent with the teachings of the Church.

I was very happy to be a part of it and it was also a chance for me to acknowledge publicly the service to the Church of Father John F. Harvey, OSFS, who has given so many years to this ministry. I met him for the first time in Washington, 30 years ago, I was a young priest and he was already involved in this ministry doing wonderful work. Now, at 90 years-old, he is still serving God’s people with the same zeal and affection.

There were almost 200 participants at the conference and Dale O’Leary, who is always so good, gave her keynote address at the conference on “Attachment Disorders and the Need for Love.” I also got a chance to speak with Father Paul Check, a priest in the Bridgeport Diocese and former military chaplain, who will be taking over for Father Harvey as director. Father Harvey is going to retire and take a more ancillary role. Father John Sullivan, who is the chaplain for the archdiocese for Courage and Father Al Sylvia, who is the archdiocese’s chaplain for Encourage, the group that works with the families, were both among the concelebrants with me at the Mass."

Renee said...

The Boston pilot covers the Courage Conference...." In 1980, Courage International, a Catholic support group, was established to reach out to homosexuals and provide them with an alternate lifestyle choice--one in communion with the teachings of the Church and where true happiness can be found.

The late Cardinal Terence Cooke of New York asked Father John Harvey, OSFS, Courage’s founder, to begin a ministry to Catholics with same-sex attractions who were trying to live a chaste lifestyle. He felt that little was being done to reach out to them, which in turn caused many homosexuals to accept the status quo that society provided.

The Courage support group is aimed at helping those with same-sex attractions to realize that happiness and peace come from God and can be found through chastity, prayer, fellowship, support from others and being a good example to others. Today Courage chapters are located in more than 100 dioceses in the United States.

In the near future, Father Harvey, now 90 years old, will hand directorship of Courage to Father Paul Check, a priest from the Diocese of Bridgeport, Conn., who has been Bridgeport’s Courage chaplain since 2002. Father Check called Father Harvey “a man of generosity of heart and great love of Christ and the Church,” and said that he will use his new position to carry on the legacy of Father Harvey by educating fellow priests, seminarians and those working in marriage and family ministries about how to minister to those with same-sex attractions."

Honestly I'm pretty hurt by the two posts above. I've blogged for over three years no on protecting marriage, I contributing on the Opine Editorials for over a year in 2007 up to July 2008sharing the biological nature of human sexuality of two-sex and procreative.
Marriage needs to be monogamous and heterosexual, but that doesn't mean I can value the good in FRIENDSHIPS, whether the person may be gay or strait. I do believe in a form of "civil union" but not simply as a gay alternative. There are plenty of unmarried individual, chase and happen to be straight.

Renee said...


“Sed Contra” 'Because not all those who wander are lost'

David Morrison is the author of this "Sed Contra" and the book Beyond Gay, which Our Sunday Visitor press published in 1999 and which is still in print.
He is also the founder and moderator of Courage Online, an online support community for men and women living with some degree of same sex attraction who wish to do so chastely.
Throughout his career so far David has written on human rights issues, population issues, pro-life issues and chastity issues. In addition to this web log and the writing for his day job, David speaks and writes on chastity and identity issues.

For more on a Catholic Obligation towards those with same-sex attraction my posting is here. Now the article comes from the Knights of Colombus, which is a Catholic Fraternal Organization established to care for women of children, when their husbands past away. Does that sound like bigotry and hate by the Catholic Church?

The Catholic Church has its own ministry for persons with same-sex attraction. It isn't an ex-gay ministry, because it is unrealistic if someone is experiencing same-sex attraction to just become 'straight'. From David’s book he asks “Can you love others and not approve of everything about the way they live their life? If you think you must approve, and what they are doing is harmful, are you really being compassionate to them”

Taken from Rev. Gabriel B O’Donnell, OP Columbia Magazine publication of the Knights of Columbus/ January 2007 p. 24

“The Church does not condemn homosexuals or homosexuality. Every person, created in the image and likeness of God, possesses a dignity and worth that demands respect and compassion from one’s brothers and sisters in the human family. While the origins of same-sex attraction are not yet scientifically clear, most of those who are oriented do no choose this sexual attraction. A man or woman cannot be blamed or condemned merely because he or she experiences such an attraction….
The Church must condemn homosexual acts because they are contrary to God’s plan expressed in natural law and in divine revelation. The complementarity of man and woman as male and female is inherent in God’s creative design for human race. “Precisely because man and woman are different, yet complimentary, they can come together in union that is open to the possibility of life.”
Most important was this paragraph.“Same-sex attraction is a source of great suffering for many men and women who call themselves ‘gay.’ Often misunderstood and rejected by their families and friends, they fear they will not be able to live normal, productive lives. As they retreat into enclaves of like-minded persons, the homosexual subculture provides an apparent safe haven, but it does not really solve the problem.”

Renee said...

Oh a great blog by an openly gay and chaste Catholic...


Also Eve Tushnet talks becoming a Catholic as a person who experiences same-sex attraction.

"I was incredibly lucky. I did not have to overcome familial rejection when I came out. I didn’t face violence or even much teasing. And, of course, this charmed life made it easier for me to believe that Catholic teaching was not based in hatred. I was equally lucky that the friends whose influence ultimately helped me accept the grace of conversion didn’t focus on my sexual orientation. They knew I was gay, and that I was pretty vocal about it. They tried, when I asked, to explain church teaching on homosexuality, but did it very poorly. I’m glad that they instead wanted to talk with me about the Crucifixion as the reconciliation of justice and mercy, or Creation as an explanation of the goodness and intrinsic, poetic meaning of the physical world....
When I was baptized and confirmed, pledging, “I believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches,” I did it basically as a leap of faith. I knew why I needed to be Catholic; I knew that as a Catholic I’d have to follow this stuff, faith seeking understanding and all that; I trusted that eventually I would understand the reasons behind the teaching a little better. And I do. Even so, I waver on how much I think I understand the teaching from day to day.
But what has constantly surprised me about the Catholic Church is just how much there is for me here. There is a rich theology of friendship, helping me to express my love of women both sacrificially and chastely. There’s honor for both celibacy and married life, and resources for living fruitfully in either of these states. We have Oscar Wilde’s fairy tales, we have saints who are possibly even crazier than I am, we have the Anima Christi and Thomas à Kempis’s rewriting of the Song of Songs as a hymn to the crucified Christ. I feel as if every week or so I discover yet another hidden treasure of the church that speaks to me in exactly the way I need in order to deal specifically with my struggles, resentments, longings, and strengths as a woman and a lesbian. We can make the church’s teaching believable by becoming more Catholic-which is, not coincidentally, what we should be doing anyway."

sigh... I'm tired.

Renee said...

Jay I know you're not a regular blogger, but please inform them of all my posts on Opine Editorals... I've been called so many names by homosexuals. I've been posting back even from December 2006 when you were conversing with John Hosty which lead to be a 'marriage advocate'

It's amazing. I was blogged swarmed at 20 weeks pregnant back in 2006 by radical homosexuals. I took a beating over Opine, being called every name in the book by gay activist, so I'm so deeply angered to even it be considered I'm justifying same-sex marriage.


Renee said...

From December 06 in January 07 on you're blog....


Regarding homosexual acts and sin, we have to remember that heterosexuals commit their fair share of sins. Many of which are actually the same sin....

I understand the topic is intense and I want to thank John for speaking with his idenity. I use my own real name on my blog, and I think it is necessary to do so in a civilize society. It is nice to speak face to face regarding this issue.

I wrote this in my blog, it is very emotional and I don't want to offend but I feel just like everyone else the need to speak up on their own behalf.

Here it goes...

As much as I understand there are personal investments other relationships have, that very well should have acknowledgment and benefit I have to drive home the argument that something changes dramatically in a heterosexual relationship when it opens itself to children when sexual activity occurs.....

It goes on for a bit

Michael Cole said...

Renee writes, "There is a big difference between the a homosexual act and a person who may be a homosexual!" No kidding. But if you're trying to sell us the lie that most homosexuals and lesbians are not engaging in sexual relationships, you really aren't going to have much success. We know better.

On October 1, 1986, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published a document titled Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons. The Letter recalls the distinction between homosexual tendencies and homosexual practices:

"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it IS a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."

Strange Renee how you never make mention of THAT particular aspect of Magisterial teaching. I wonder why. Perhaps because it doesn't suit your agenda to have "laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships"?

The homosexual lifestyle is highly promiscuous. And even when a homosexual person is not living in sin, the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

JayG said...

Marie, John,
Paul is spot on about Jelly's statement being indicative of Jelly's choice.

I also think you could give Renee the benefit of the doubt, since she has clearly and consistently written against Same-Sex marriage in the past, as well as clearly and consistently stated that same-sex attraction is disordered and that homosexual acts are grave sins, and therefore not assume that her comment "We need differing sets of laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships" means she supports pseudo-marriage for homosexuals with civil unions. She clearly does not.

I think Renee was trying to reach out to our brothers and sisters with Same-Sex attraction in an attempt to get them to join a genuinely Catholic ministry to Gays and Lesbians in Courage (and not the dissenting Dignity group), a ministry to preaches the sinfulness of homosexual acts without condemning the individual person - whom God wants to save. You may argue that her attempt was not clear enough in this particular posting, but in my dealings with Renee she has never indicated that pride that cometh before dissent.

Anything that speaks sex, such as same-sex marriage, which indicates that the (pseudo) marriage act will take place, or a proclamation that people are engaged in homosexual sex, is wrong, but short of that we might extend some sort of legal protections to individuals that seek to look out for and care for each other. Of course I realize this will be propagandized by the homosexual lobby, which is why I disagree with Renee in that we need to be very careful here, but I would not call her a dissenter nor would I characterize what Renee said as an equivalent to “legal recognition of homosexual unions.” I believe she was merely trying to encourage those with SSA to seek a way out of sin.

Marie Tremblay said...

As much as I like to give other Catholics (and Christians of other faiths etc) the benefit of the doubt - asking for clarification where this is needed - Renee's assertion that, "We need differing sets of laws that recognize the different dynamics of differing types of relationships" really speaks for itself.

I am not, of course, suggesting that Renee hasn't argued against same-sex "marriage" in the past, but people's views often change or evolve. Her call for "differing sets of laws that recognize..differing types of relationships" is profoundly disturbing. If this is not a call for legal recognition of "civil unions" or "domestic partnerships," what is it? Words do, after all, have meaning.

I'm also concerned with this statement made by Renee: "not all aspects of a same-sex relationship are wrong.." Hopefully what she meant to convey is that not all same-sex relationships are homosexual in nature. There are members of the same sex who are simply friends. But given the context of this discussion thread, I am concerned that this is NOT what she intended to say. If she is saying that there are some "aspects" of a same-sex [homosexual] relationship that are not "wrong," I would like some clarification on what she means. The very inclination is, after all, "objectively disordered" and any homosexual act is, objectively speaking, gravely sinful. I say objectively speaking because the full extent of moral culpability is known to God alone and that is not for us to judge. It is this sense that Scripture says God alone is judge.

I am deeply concerned - as are many others - about Renee's call for legal recognition of "differing types of relationships." I also have some reservations about Renee because while she was quick to pounce on Paul Melanson for a remark he didnt make [which was actually mine and which I stand by], she has also been quick to defend a homosexual activist who comments here regularly when an individual made inappropriate remarks about him. This would seem to indicate that Renee extends a courtesy to active homosexuals which she will not extend to a brother in the faith. I do not say that she shouldn't have come to the defense of the homosexual activist. I oly question why she was so hasty to engage in criticism of a well-respected Catholic blogger and lay-philosopher.

I find that troubling as well.

Marie Tremblay said...

If we call for the State to extend "legal protections to individuals that seek to look out for and care for each other," and these individuals are same-sex partners, then we are really just settling for a euphemism. Unfortunately, many are blind to the fact that the legal and social recognition of these euphemistic labels is the legal and social recognition of homosexual unions per se. This would merely provide a "stepping stone" as it were to the homosexual movement to attain its prized goal of same-sex "marriage" across the entire nation.

This is why I believe Renee's call for such legal recognition to be reckless and irresponsible. And in direct contradiction to what the Church teaches authoritatively

Paul Anthony Melanson said...

It is reckless Marie. The CDF, in its authoritative teaching expressed in "Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons," teaches that, "Diffentiating between persons or refusing social recognition or benefits is unacceptable only when it is contrary to justice. The denial of the social and legal status of marriage to forms of cohabitation that are not and cannot be marital is not opposed to justice; on the contrary, justice requires it."

And No. 5 of this same document states clearly, "Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection..."

We cannot, we must not, ignore this teaching. There is a great difference between tolerance and the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons.

I'm sure I will be ostracized by some for insisting on this Marie. This will come as nothing new to me. I am persona non grata even at my parish.

C'est la vie.

jelly said...

First of all, me being a lesbian is not a choice, I was born this way, I know this in my heart.

The expression "switching teams" is an expression meant in jest.
I should have realized on here, I was opening up a can of worms.

I don't understand, how and why straight people even care what goes on in gay people's private lives. Why are you all so obsessed?
I live my life just like everyone else. I live in a state where I can be married to the woman I love and share the same benefits state wide as all hetero couples. We pay taxes, pay our bills, work, own a home and raise two teens.
We vacation, hike, cuddle, watch movies, garden, cook & laugh.
What I do in my bedroom, is my business and I don't understand why straight people are so darn concerned.

Get a life already. Please.
Leave us be. Let us love, practice whatever faith we want, marry and raise our families in peace! We don't rally around and harrass straight couples, now do we?

Stop hating.

Anonymous said...

"We don't rally around and harrass straight couples, now do we?"

No, you just visit other blogs and harass Christian believers.

"I don't understand, how and why straight people even care what goes on in gay people's private lives. Why are you all so obsessed?"

If your homosexuality is such a "non-issue," why then do you blog, and visit other blogs, agitating for special rights and same-sex "marriage"? You make it an issue more than we do.

JayG said...

It is you who should leave us be. We did not care what went on in your homes. But you went and redefined marriage in MA, and are trying to force this redefinition on the whole country. You don't want to simply be tolerated and let be, you insist that we celebrate your lifestyle in a way designed to influence our youngest children. And to eventually prevent us from living our beliefs. That's why you take names, so you can kick but later when the time comes.

Marie Tremblay said...

Jelly writes, "First of all, me [my] being a lesbian is not a choice, I was born this way, I know this in my heart... The expression 'switching teams' is an expression meant in jest."

Now that she realizes her own words prove conclusively that her "lifestyle" is a choice, Jelly now asserts she was "joking" when she used the expression "switching teams."

Nice try. But I'm not buying it. As Paul noted, "When 'Jelly' writes, 'I certainly don't plan on switching teams EVER!,' she is acknowledging that she is making a choice, a free and voluntary act of the will. And writes the word 'ever' in capital letters to highlight the fact that she intends to never change. She is free to choose between the two alternatives of acting or not acting. In her case, of 'switching teams' or not 'switching teams.' Of remaining in a lesbian lifestyle or abandoning it."

Paul is right. If Jelly was ony "joking," why did she emphasize the word "ever" by capitalizing the letters. It is a well-known fact to those who exchange correspondence over the internet (in chat rooms, emails etc) that typing in capital letters is a way of emphasizing a point. It's called "shouting."

Jelly realizes that she put her foot in her mouth in her first comment at this discussion thread and is trying to take back her comment.

Nice try Jelly. But it doesn't work. At your Blog, you write about June being dedicated to LGBT "Pride." Your homosexual "lifestyle" is a free choice.

jelly said...


Eric Levan said...

Isn't it interesting how "Jelly" - in the photograph which accompanies her profile - may be seen giving the symbol for the Devil with her right hand? That particular hand gesture is big with occultists and satanists. It symbolozes the Devil's horns.

Eric Levan said...


It fits.

Marie Tremblay said...

In American Sign Language, that gesture means "I love you" Eric. We must be careful not to engage in rash judgment against others. Even when they fail to extend that same courtesy to us. I believe "Jelly" is hearing-impaired. I'm more interested in her attempt to backtrack from her initial comment at this thread.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

" We must be careful not to engage in rash judgment against others."

I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this. That's all you do is make rash judgments and outright lies about people.

The only sane person that blogs here is Renee. She knows enough to give people the opportunity to change and grow towards the light instead of embracing fear and the darkness that surrounds hate.

I lived a chaste life, and my process of Catholic decernment is documented with St. Joseph's church in Salem. People who can't handle the idea that gay people can be good and worthy of God forced me out of the church with their hate, much like people here hate when I post. I chose to leave the organized church in order to follow Christ on a more private path. That path in no way leads away from His teachings, I still embrace love and peace, I simply cannot be a part of the hypocrisy of the Holy See.

That hate recently was so powerful as to motivate someone to come onto my blog, lie about someone else, and that lie was then spun around on me like it was my creation.

Hate is not God's way, lies are strickly forbidden in the Bible and the ninth commandment states it clearly.

It is possible that Renee's ministry is more powerful than other people's here because she comes from love and not hate? Seems to make sense given the Catholic doctrine.

Who knows when someone is a total loss? Who knows when we should turn our backs on our brothers and sisters? Not one among us, so I keep my door open and I ask Christ to give me the strength each and every day to be an example to others that they might see the light of Christ through my love for them and forgiveness of their hate against me.

Pax Christi, and thank you Renee for your kind words. I too have found respect for you.

William's wife said...

Hosty, you are a hate-filled Christianophobe who routinely engages in calumny at your blog and at this one. Your lies finally caught up with you though. Your decision to publish outright lies about my husband at your blog reveal what you are. An utterly disgusting person.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I went back and started checking different posts when I realized Lillith and Dawn posted from the same IP and made a startling revelation.

Jay, you have been pretending to be all these different people (William, Lillith, Dawn, Marie Tremblay, John Ansley) but why? Did you really think you could do God's work with lies?

William's Wife said...

I had previously left this comment at the post "What everyone deserves":

"...I find it most interesting how Mr. Hosty - true to form according to my husband - once again attempts to turn a criticism away from himself by pointing a finger at another. There is absolutely no recognition on his part as to just how hateful and disturbing his behavior is. Without a shred of evidence to corroborate accusations against William, he nevertheless was anxious to believe the accusations and to allow them to be published at his Blog.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, I pretended to be someone and something else to expose Mr. Hosty and his devious methods. Having done that, I immediately revealed my true identity.

But Mr. Hosty will not, indeed he cannot, admit his wrong. Why is this? While I am not a clinical psychiatrist, I believe the answer is obvious. Like "Clark Rockefeller," Mr. Hosty is a perpetual liar whose manipulation of others is rooted in narcissism.

I would encourage Mr. Hosty to consult with a clinical psychiatrist. A good one. And to read up on what Wikipedia has to say about narcissism.
There is help out there."

In an exchange of emails Hosty exchanged with me, he admitted using devious techniques to try to expose Christians and others who oppose homosexuality, including seducing them. And when he was exposed as a liar here at this blog, he wrote me an email admitting "this doesn't make me look good."

Hosty is, in my opinion, a dangerous person.

jelly said...

Eric, I am Deaf.
The sign I am giving is the universal sign for I LOVE YOU.

Not the devil...lol, what a silly man you are.

And I don't 'believe' in any devil for that matter.

Thanks for the laugh.

John...my friend...where have you been hiding?

jelly said...

Oh and I'm Deaf Marie, not Hearing Impaired. Most Deaf, do not prefer that word anymore.
Just an FYI for you.

jelly said...

The homosexual lifestyle is highly promiscuous.

Really? Where do you get these facts?

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Jelly, what I've known for quite some time is that Jay is the person posting as these other people, like William and his wife.

Jay, do you wear a dress and lipstick like in "Silence of the Lambs" when you post as women?

The game is up.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

William's wife, I call you out. Reveal your true identity so that it can be varified and then I will retract my accusation that you are actually Jay G.

You might try to say that you are afraid since you fear and hate me, I thought of that already. Reveal yourself to Renee, she won't lie and I will take her word that you are not who I say you are.

What say you now? ;)

jelly said...

oh, so all these people are really one person?

lol, and we are the wacky ones, us glbt folk?

yikes. talk about gender confusion!!

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Jelly, even if I didn't have the IP addresses that prove positively what I say all you would need to do is look at the posts; they all sound similar with distinctive wordage and catch phrases.

Another point is that these people come out in unison, and also go away in unison each time.

He's grown rather sloppy about covering these tracks, now their obviousness can't be denied.

I think it will be good for his soul to accept he has been caught and tell the truth, but liars often don't know when to call it quits.

William said...

Every time Hosty posts a comment I am even more convinced he is a sociopath. Maybe "Jelly" is John in drag.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

I'm getting the feeling you won't cooperate by showing your identity to Renee, is that true?

You can brush off my calling you out, but everyone is going to know I'm right unless you stand up and prove me wrong. We both know you can't do that because you are one in the same.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Jay, despite your lies and your unwillingness to come clean I will not turn my back on you. I'll hold out hope that true agape love can find the most hardend heart as the Lord asks me to.

However, I will not allow you to continue your charade without calling you out.

William said...


jelly said...

Nope, Jelly and John are two seperate people as you can see from our blogs.

Don't be such a hater...your God doesn't hate, why do you? Your ignorance makes you look so foolish.

I think Jesus, if he were alive today, would be a friend to the GLBT community. He was pretty hip for his time back then, I'm sure he'd be pretty cool with all of us now. I think he'd be more disappointed in the haters more than anything.

Happy Pride!!

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Jay, it's time to drop the facade. You know as well as I do that you've been caught. That's why not one of your "characters" is willing to reveal themselves to Renee.

It takes a sick sick person to perpetuate a lie like this. I expect that the few other people who post here have their own questions about both your honesty and your sanity.

You cannot have true communion with God until you absolve yourself of this sin through confession. If you had done so you would have been told by your priest to stop lying, so this action is literally getting between you and God.

This is a grave situation you have put yourself in, I will pray for you.

William's wife said...

Try as you might John, you cannot turn this around. I have exposed your lies and your deceit. In your email to me dated June 8, 2009 at 6:55 PM, you wrote "Lilith went on DTF and basically said she was lying about what she said on my blog, which of course doesn't make me look good. I don't know what to think of all this.."

I pretended to be someone else. Not Jay. Every time you insist otherwise, you are accusing an innocent person falsely. And that is calumny.

You make specific mention in your emails of using dirty tricks to try to expose Christians and of trying to seduce them. This is nothing less than an acknowledgement that you have been using evil methods to try to discredit people who oppose homosexuality.

I'll say it again, anyone who would like a copy of John Hosty's emails in which he freely admits using devilish tactics to try to undermine opposition to homosexuality, has only to contact me at the email address: DawnofAquarius66@yahoo.com

Now that John Hosty has been exposed, now that it has been proven that he publishes lies about others at his blog without corroboration, nobody will take this weasel seriously in any fashion.

Eric Levan said...

WESTMINSTER, UK, August 15, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A priest of Westminster, the leading diocese of the Catholic Church of England and Wales, has written that promiscuity, whether homosexual or heterosexual, can lead to dire spiritual consequences, in addition to the dangers to physical health.

Promiscuity, as well as homosexuality and pornography, says 73 year-old Fr. Jeremy Davies, is a form of sexual perversion and can lead to demonic possession. Offering what may be an explanation for the explosion of homosexuality in recent years, Fr. Davies said, "Among the causes of homosexuality is a contagious demonic factor."

Among the causes of homosexuality is a contagious demonic factor. There is nothing loving about the homosexual perversion. It is a pathology, which is often demonic in nature.

This would probably explain why John Hosty is so driven to continually come here and to spread lies, hatred and division. All the work of the demon.

Kym said...

John your the devil? lol
Oh my!

John is a nice, honest, tell it like it is blogger.

Why be so judgemental right wing christian people?

Tsk, tsk...your God wouldn't like that so much.

Anonymous said...

Hosty writes "People who can't handle the idea that gay people can be good and worthy of God forced me out of the church.." Come on. I've been a Catholic all my life and not once during all this time have I ever witnessed any homosexual person being "forced out of the Church."

But if a person is demon-possessed or so determined to promote the sodomite lifestyle as Hosty obviously is, I can understand why Hosty would have been driven from the Church.

The fact that he was driven out of a Catholic Church would indicate much. Very much. He was most likely seen as an evil influence by Church authorities and members of the parish. Good devout Catholic souls usually have no problem recognizing a demoniac or a propagandist for an evil lifestyle.

We are known by our fruits. And Hosty was - in his own words - kicked out of his Church. Scary.

JayG said...

Jesus is alive.

William said...

Kym you said "Why be so judgemental right wing christian people?

Tsk, tsk...your God wouldn't like that so much."

Aren't you being "judgmental" when you call us "right wint"? Isn't the implication that we are being "fanatical"?

Our God? So you admit He's not your God? Who is? Lucifer? Yourself?

You should know that Jesus never taught against being judgmental in the sense you mean. He told us not to judge a person's soul. He never said we couldn't judge objective facts. Wasn't Jesus rendering a judgment when He called the Pharisees "hypocrites," "white-washed tombs," "sons of hell," children of the Devil (see John 8:44)?

Kym said...

I'm not a Pharisee first of all.

And who or what I believe in is not something I am going to discuss here.

I don't believe in "Lucifer" and Jesus is not alive...ummm...he kinda died a long time ago, dude, hello? Where ya been? And Jesus wasn't rendering judgement on the Pharisees...he was just name calling...venting, ranting, saying what he thought was right. I don't judge him, he was who he was and that's cool by me.

You 'right wing Christians' are judgemental. You show that here, on this blog and with these comments you make, you should go and reread what you write. It is rubbish. You also come to our GLBT events and spew out hate with your corny signs and chants...please, that is so yesterday. Get with the times.

We are here...we are queer...and we aren't going anywhere, much to your dismay.

Have a fabulous weekend btw.

Kym said...

Oh and what's up with the multiple personalities thing?

William said...

Kym, we're here too. Much to your dismay. And we're not going away either. Get over it. Take your unnatural perversions and lusts and your hatred elsewhere. But know this: the wages of sin is death and homosexuals will never inherit the Kingdom of God.

jelly said...

I don't want to inherit the Kingdom of God...I will leave that foolishness up to you.

And honestly, my perversions are not perversions, they are natural and very normal.

What about all those animals in the wild that practice homosexual and bisexual behavior are they not going the kingdom of heaven either?

We know your not going anywhere...and how annoying is that??? Very.

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

How interesting, we have a new moniker. Jay, are you growing new personalities as we speak?

You can say whatever you want about me, it does not excuse your lies. You own what you do.

The reason Jay is so silent on the matter is he knows he is caught pretending to be multiple people and he knows how strange other people perceieve that to be, as they should.

You can post under William, William's wife or whoever you want, we know it's you Jay.

That's why you don't have anyone coming forward on your behalf and saying they'd be glad to prove they are real people.

How much longer are you going to continue living this fantasy and driving a wedge between you and God with your lies?

John Hosty-Grinnell said...

Jay, when you posted as Lillith on my website you left as trail of information along with your IP address.

If I were a less reputable person like you claim I could have easily attached tracking spyware to the email I sent you when you were pretending to be Lillith. ;)

Do you think I suspected something when you first posted here as Lillith months ago where I didn't take the bait? Do you think it might have been when I noticed DawnofAquarius had the same IP? Or maybe how Lillith would not sign up to follow my blog?

You're terrible at covering your lies, technology has caught you irrefutably. I suggest you just come clean and take whatever criticizm you have coming from those who had faith in you. They have had their faith shaken by your actions. Save what's left of your dignity and your relationship with God. Don't become another Ted Haggard.

You can say all the nasty things you want about me, those words don't excuse what you've done.

JayG said...

I'm not pretending to be anyone else. I'm just running an obscure blog and commenting on what I believe is right and wrong.