Paul, I just read that. I was bothered by that also.
Anyways in response to what I began reading last December, I've been writing more of the positive response we can give those experiencing same-sex attraction.
I will review those links Renee. Thank you very much. I have visited your wonderful Blog. Pope John Paul II often spoke of the genius of women Renee. Whenever I come across faith-filled women like yourself who are so obviously gifted by the Lord Jesus, I always gain a deeper appreciation for that genius.
Please pray for me. At the present moment, I am under attack again for opposing the anti-Semitism of an organization which claims to be Catholic but which is not in communion with the Diocese of Manchester (in which I reside) or affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church in any way.
"I was incredibly lucky. I did not have to overcome familial rejection when I came out. I didn’t face violence or even much teasing. And, of course, this charmed life made it easier for me to believe that Catholic teaching was not based in hatred. I was equally lucky that the friends whose influence ultimately helped me accept the grace of conversion didn’t focus on my sexual orientation. They knew I was gay, and that I was pretty vocal about it. They tried, when I asked, to explain church teaching on homosexuality, but did it very poorly. I’m glad that they instead wanted to talk with me about the Crucifixion as the reconciliation of justice and mercy, or Creation as an explanation of the goodness and intrinsic, poetic meaning of the physical world. "
Another interesting Blog to visit. I see the Holy Spirit at work across the internet. Blogs written by faithful Catholics are having an impact.
I also believe a day of persecution is fast approaching. May our witness continue even when we face serious opposition, especially when that opposition becomes violent.
The blood of martyrs is the seed of Christianity. Whether we are called to a dry martyrdom or a bloody one, let us always glorify the Blood of Jesus.
This may be a little off the subject; i'm posting here as it is the current spot on this excellent blog.
I would like to invite any interested to visit this C-Fam webpage, and sign the petition there. It only takes a moment.
As the C-Fam article recounts, the CEDAW treaty is being used by certain U.N. thugs to pressure poor nations to legalize abortion, same-sex marriage, and prostitution. The petition is to urge your Senators to not ratfiy the treaty.
Here's a connection to other comments here: C-Fam is one of those effective Catholic voices, one of the best, in my humble opinion.
I think Christ would have preferred us to spend our time spreading joy. He said, "You shall know who comes in my name by the love they bring." This is where our focus should lie.
I am John Hosty's mother and how I feel about this is as follows. I feel that God loves us all. He said "He that is without sin cast the first stone" I do not think that anyone on this earth is without sin, everyone has done something that is wrong. I love my son, he has the biggest heart of anyone I know and I am very proud of him for standing up for his beliefs. In fact he is getting married, and I am buying the wedding rings as part of his wedding gift. So don't try to drag the mothers into your fight, they will always love their children no matter what. A bigger person would have an open mind and an open heart. I was raised Catholic and have family members that are nuns and priests so I do believe in God, Jesus and the religion. I hope that you find some piece for the life you lead, with so much conflict and hate it must be hard. God bless you all, John's proud Mom
Mr. Hosty's mother has told us that we should be accepting of her son's homosexual "lifestyle" because "everybody has sinned" and because "A bigger person would have an open mind and an open heart."
While it is true that we are all sinners, it is not true that we all engage in (or intend to engage in) mortal sins such as sodomy. This thanks be to God's grace working in our lives. And as far as keeping an open mind and an open heart, G.K. Chesterton once quipped: "Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid."
And a heart which rejects God's Commandments is not a heart filled with love.
Ann, It is right for a mother to love her son. All of us parents can only hope that our love somehow in some small way reflects the love God has for all of us, His children. I truly believe that all those who genuinely pursue God will find Him; and that God judges us based on where we are at. However God cannot force anyone to go to heaven, which is why it is very important for all of us to ask for mercy. We all need to remember the words of the prayer that Jesus taught us, and I would emphasize the part, "Thy will be done" which refers to God's will. We truly have to say that, and to mean it, and since God knows everything, we can't fake it (though if you are not sure, I would encourage you to at least try to fake it in the hope of eventually meaning it). You see, if we do not say to God, "Thy will be done", then God will say to us, "thy will be done." Please ask you son to examine his conscience, and to look inside himself, without any worldly trappings, and ask himself if he is at least trying to do God's will. God bless,
We are not our brother's keeper. We are called to love God, and to spread his love. These commands are more important than trying pass judgment. My focus is the joy in my heart, and in spreading that joy of Christ to others. People who can't follow that line of logic make me wonder if they understand the joy Christ's peace brings. Perhaps some people just say they are Christian because that's all they know, yet don't understand it.
"We are not our brother's keeper. We are called to love God, and to spread his love."
But we are called to be our brother's keeper. It was the murderous Cain who, when asked where his brother Abel was, responded to God, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
We are indeed called to love God and spread His love. This is why Jesus said, "If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
We are all sinners, and ongoing so. It is a sin to think yourself better than your brother. I see life as a miracle worth celebrating with all who cross my path. It seems you see life as a responsibility to adhere to laws, or suffer consequences. You go ahead and keep your focus, and I will keep mine. In the end we all answer to the same god, and He will judge us all.
I believe He wants us to love one another without judging each other, and in this way we spread the joy of His blessing. God is love, and where there is an absence of love towards homosexuals, another takes its place.
I will pray that love wins out for you, and you are able to spread joy to those whom you despise. Only by humbling yourself in this fashion will you be able to see Christ's true intentions. His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another.
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
The Word of God.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
"His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another."
This seems reasonable, and I can't find a passage in the Bible that tells us to turn our brethren away. Is there one that says homosexuals need not apply?
I don't understand why you people are so bothered by what others do that do not effect you at all. Tell me what is it to you if 2 of the same sex live together? How does that hurt you? Why is it your business to tell others what to do with their life? Why don't you try the old saying "Live and let live" it really works you know. Instead of trying to run everyone else's lives try to live and enjoy your own. Time passes to quickly and before you know it your time is up and what have you done except try to hurt others by trying to make them do as you want them to do. As for God, only he is to judge other men, it is not your job to do it for him. I feel sorry for all of you who are too busy trying to change others that you do not enjoy your own life here on earth. Let God decide who is wrong and who is right on judgement day and enjoy your own life. Leave others alone! You all sound so full of yourselfs that I will not be back here again, it is just a waste of my time. I feel sorry for all of you.
Anonymous [John Hosty?] wrote, "His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another."
This seems reasonable, and I can't find a passage in the Bible that tells us to turn our brethren away. Is there one that says homosexuals need not apply?"
The Word of God tells us that those who engage in homosexual acts have no place in the Kingdom. This because such people reject God's Commandment on the matter. It is not a question of God rejecting man. It is a question of man rejecting God and His Law of Love: "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
And again:
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
The Word of God.
If anonymous [John Hosty] and his mother Ann believe that they can convince us to reject God's Holy Word, they are wasting their time.
While we're waiting for an answer to Jay's excellent question, let's all read Pope Benedict XVI's Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est: God is Love to obtain the Church's answer to that question.
While waiting for that answer to my questions on how anon defines love and on what anon bases his beliefs on, we need to also remember that anon was wrong, Jesus never said, "You shall know who comes in my name by the love they bring," which sounds like some modern Jesus Seminar revisionism. Love was not something you bring, love is something you do, it is a verb. Jesus gave the new commandment, "That you love one another, as I have loved you" Jn13:34 and this is how we would be known, and how did Jesus love us? "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jn15:13
"He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Jn14:21
"The Word of God tells us that those who engage in homosexual acts have no place in the Kingdom. This because such people reject God's Commandment on the matter. It is not a question of God rejecting man. It is a question of man rejecting God and His Law of Love: "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
I think this is more a case of man rejecting man. We are called to love God, and Love our neighbor. We are to be fishers of men, and save souls in His name. That's a little hard to do when you have personally decided for God that someone is not worth your effort. You can identify homosexuality as a sin all you want, it does not erase the fact that the way you conduct yourself shows you to have given up on your charge.
We have been called to spread joy, peace, love, and compassion. This was the gift Christ gave us, and it is for all, even the unworthy.
According to God's Holy Word, those who engage in homosexual acts will not enter the Kingdom. Such people have rejected God's Law of Love. They have said, "My will be done."
And that is what hell is: self will. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments." This is the test of authentic love.
Again, the Word of God:
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
Again Anon, define your terms, because it sounds as if you are asking us to accept gay marriage in order to evangelize and to love our homosexual brethren. Criticize us for a lack of charity if you will (try to be specific please), but you are in error if you think we need to deny the Truth in order to love our Neighbor. And you still have not passed in your homework assignment - If you "believe He[Jesus] wants us to love one another without judging each other", two questions;
1. What do you base this belief on? 2. How do you define love?
26-year old Terry Mangum better get a good lawyer. Or maybe it would be easier for him to just plead good old fashioned insanity.
The Houston man admits to killing 46-year old Kenneth Cummings, a gay man: “I did it. Bottom line is I stabbed him the head with a knife.” Why would Magnum do such a horrible thing? God told him to, of course.
In a jailhouse interview, Mangum claims God sent him on a divine mission to “carry out a code of retribution” and eliminate Cumming’s “sexual perversion”. Talk about perverse. So, does Magnum feel any remorse? Hell no: “I believe with all my heart that I was doing the right thing. I planned on sending him to hell.”
Excuse us while we vomit.
Former gay evangelist Mel White describes Mangum’s defense as “outrageous,” saying:
You’ve got to indict everybody from {Pope} Benedict XVI on down. The church and the Christian right have set up an environment that gays are a threat to the community, and they say this over and over. … And because some people take seriously, you have murders like this. This guy is quoting from the rhetoric of the pope and Pat Robertson and the Southern Baptists.
This is a tragic and disturbing story, tragic because Cummings did not deserve to die at the hands of a psycho-killer, disturbing because White makes the outrageous and absolutely unsupportable claim that Pope Benedict said that "gays are a threat to the community." White is the one causing the nausea.
Generally, the sociopath always thinks he's the sane one.
I have often noticed that the homophobes are showing more about themselves than anything else. The way I see it, anyone who spends any time at all working to prevent any group from enjoying equality under the law has issues.
And I have never met a homophobe who didn't also have something against some other minority group as well.
I wonder if anonymous [too ashamed to use his/her real name?] would be so kind as to explain how same-sex marriage may be justified in the light of Revelation and Natural Law?
Perhaps he/she would also like to comment on the murder of Mary Stachowitz at the hands of a homosexual?
Anon, you still have not defined your terms, but I'd say your idea of love is self-centeredness, and your idea of equality under the law is whatever your lobby group can manipulate for you. Gay marriage in Massachusetts was a triumph of will. Your propaganda machine must now continue in high gear in its attempt to intimidate the rest of the United States and the world into believing they are homophobes if they stand up for the Natural Law and the Historical definition of Marriage that has been the cornerstone of Culture and Civilization.
The fatal flaw in your desire is that your extreme political correctness blinds you and prevents you from criticizing the children of Ishmael - so even if you win, you will lose, and you will lament the day you drove the children of Issac from your midst.
There is no war, only in your mind. Put your hate down and live in peace. Maybe then the full glory of God's love can be revealed to you, and you will understand why Christ would lay down His life, not just for the unworthy, or ungrateful, but for His enemy as well.
The key is love. Approach your troubles from love instead of hate and God will provide the solution for you. Have a little faith, He knows what He is doing. Nothing is out of control, it is all within His will. You do not need to understand God's motivations for what He does, or disrespect His creations. All you need to do is follow, and He will show you the light. He is the Prince of Peace.
William, if it makes you feel better you can call me Matthew, but I will not give you my last name just as you do not give your full name. I have been posting without a name because I want you to focus on what is said rather than who is saying it. I expect that you are only looking for a name so you can dismiss the message, and that makes for poor logic.
Matthew, In the parable of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus says that the enemy is the devil, Mt13:39, so if you are saying that Jesus died for His enemy, the devil, then you wrong. The devil made his choice in eternity, which means that choice was for eternity.
However, the rest of us, the unworthy, our choices are made in time, and time is God's gift to us to repent.
William, personal attacks are another symptom of bad logic. You don't know me, so saying bad logic is my domain is simply rude. You were in fact looking for an easy reason to dismiss my words, say otherwise if I am wrong.
What you are doing is trying to win an argument rather than trying to hold a discussion that brings us all closer to the truth. You have not responded to my points, you are only talking at me instead of with me. In a world with closed minds we all learn nothing.
If we can agree to have a discussion that is based in mutual learning and respect, I'll both to return. Otherwise you have my prayers and my sincere sympathies for what seems like an overactive dislike of homosexuals. This is very unfit behavior for a Christian.
Love the sinner hate the sin, unless they're gay? Not in my Bible. The door must ALWAYS be left open while there is still hope, and the miracle of seeing the light can come late in life for some. You don't have God's permission to turn your back on His commandment to love thy neighbor simply because you think someone is unworthy. If you cannot shake yourself out of this feeling of superiority, it is my concern that those who you claim are going to Hell for their sins will be your neighbors again in the afterlife.
Anonymous, you wrote, "Put your hate down and live in peace. Maybe then the full glory of God's love can be revealed to you.." and then you demonstrated YOUR hate by accusing me of "bad logic" because I wondered why you were posting comments anonymously.
I submit that you are the one filled with hatred since you levelled accusations against my person of living in hatred and lacking peace.
And you still haven't answered my questions or Jay's. It's time to put up or shut up as they say.
Anon, You have defended gay marriage by calling those against it homophobes with issues, yet now you claim we should love the sinner and hate the sin. If homosexual relations are a sin, why should we support gay marriage? Do you even believe that someone could be eternally cut off and separated from God? Unless you can clarify these very blatant contradictions, I believe you are simply trying to waste our time? Do tell if otherwise.
As I thought, you recognize that there is no compassion for homosexuals on this blog, or in your heart.
Christ does not give us permission to turn our backs on our brothers simply because we disagree with how they are living their lives. We are called to minister to and give love to the unworthy in the hope that some day they will see the light. For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother. While in deliberate breech of this commandment, you are no better than those you preach against.
The choice, like theirs, is yours my friends, but if you look past what God wants to follow your own hatred, expect to suffer the consequences of that decision.
Anon. everyday I consider what to expect when I stand in judgment - and with that in mind I simply cannot affirm or confirm anyone in their sin, because I will be judged on my silence as well as what I have said and done. I would argue that your support for gay marriage is turning your back on our brethren in need. Take a look at who you stand next to in your support of this parody of marriage that affirms our brethren in their sins. Are you sure that you want to argue with God? Do you want to argue with the Pope? Do you want to argue with the Dalai Lama?
Nice try, but your faux concern for our brethren is not so much useless as it is hateful.
"For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother."
This is a truth that you cannot argue around. If you cannot leave the chance of salvation open enough to try and save souls, it is you we should turn our back on, because you have turned you back on God's will to follow your own feelings.
"For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother."
This is a truth that you cannot argue around. If you cannot leave the chance of salvation open enough to try and save souls, it is you we should turn our back on, because you have turned you back on God's will to follow your own feelings."
Actually, this is sheer rubbish. The Scriptures repeatedly tells us to avoid or reject those who are contumacious and who want to reject God's Holy Word. For example, 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
There is really no way to argue around this. So goodbye anonymous...I will pray for your conversion.
"As for the individual homosexual caught up in this vice, I love him more than ever. For I now have a greater understanding and appreciation of the terrible all-embracing hold that this vice can have on a man and an even greater conviction that one should move heaven and earth to prevent any souls from being sucked into the homosexual vortex." The Rite of Sodomy(pp. xxiii-xxiv) by Randy Engel
How can we be called to spread the good Word yet cherry pick who we help? If we wait for sinners to give up sinning on their own before we reach out, we have not done enough to spread God's will. Drunks continue to sin, yet we do not close our door when they come to it.
"What shepherd will not leave his flock to search for the one gone astray?"
All God's children are worthy of the continued effort no matter the level of their sins. Some learn late in life.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
How can we be called to spread the good Word yet cherry pick who we help? If we wait for sinners to give up sinning on their own before we reach out, we have not done enough to spread God's will. Drunks continue to sin, yet we do not close our door when they come to it.
"What shepherd will not leave his flock to search for the one gone astray?"
All God's children are worthy of the continued effort no matter the level of their sins. Some learn late in life.
1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. 2. Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy). 3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated. 4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. 5. Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
I believe Biblical Truth is well worth repeating. And I don't believe doing so is childish. We should never view the Word of the Living God as "childish" or look at those who quote from this Divine Word as being "childish."
The Word of God is truth. Let's embrace it. Not rebel against it.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
God's Holy Word condemns homosexual acts as an abomination and says that those who do such things deserve death.
Hateful attacks directed at me will have absolutely no effect. You are wasting your time.
There is nothing hateful about telling someone they are acting like a child when they are in fact acting like a child. You are trying to shout down someone who is in your camp on this issue. All I said was I thought it was childish that you are repeating yourself over and over. Your repetition is making you look like a loon.
Gary, your comments are inappropriate at this forum. There is nothing childish about posting the Word of God on this issue. Sometimes it is necessary to repeat something since there are those who refuse to relect on what is being said.
If you find William's quoting from Sacred Scripture to be "childish" or as being somehow "morally offensive," the solution is painfully simple and obvious to any adult mind: simply stop coming hee to read the comments.
Matlee, there is nothing inappropriate about what I said. I did not say posting the word of God was childish, I said that repeating yourself over and over was childish.
What's with all the hostility? By the way, you can take your own advice honey and get out if the kitchen is too hot for you.
1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. 2. Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy). 3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated. 4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical. 5. Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.
I get the distinct impression that "Gary" is really John Hosty. Wouldn't it be nice if this person could answer the difficult questions put to him regarding same-sex "marriage" and Natural Law in another thread?
Careful Matlee. Gary might accuse you of being "childish" for asking a difficult question and your comments will be deleted.
I just cannot understand why my Scripture quotations were deemed "inappropriate" and therefore deleted. Because I posted them a few times? I did this only because Gary and anonymous were not really reflecting on the Scriptures cited.
Apparently the message of those Scriptures was deemed "unbearable."
Matlee, this thread was made to discuss this topic. We can talk here without interrupting the whole blog.
You want to talk natural law so here goes:
"The natural law argument for the existence of God was especially popular in the eighteenth century as a result of the influence of Sir Isaac Newton. Observers concluded that things are the way they are because God intended them to be that way, though He operated outside of the natural law, Himself, as the law giver." -wikipedia.com
Also from wikipedia.com we find:
"Initially drafted by James Madison in 1789, the Bill of Rights was written at a time when ideological conflict between Federalists and anti-Federalists, dating from the Philadelphia Convention in 1787, threatened the Constitution's ratification. The Bill was influenced by George Mason's 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights, the 1689 English Bill of Rights, works of the Age of Enlightenment pertaining to natural rights, and earlier English political documents such as the Magna Carta (1215). The Bill was largely a response to the Constitution's influential opponents, including prominent Founding Fathers, who argued that it failed to protect the basic principles of human liberty."
In a nut shell, we acknowledge God and then our equality before Him.
I say openly that I do not support gay marriage. I do support treating people with kindness and doing my personal best to be compassionate. Not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy. I notice that whenever someone makes a point against you the insults come out. If you think what I say is wrong, try proving it. I assume we are all adults here, correct?
Gary wrote, " I do support treating people with kindness and doing my personal best to be compassionate. Not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy. I notice that whenever someone makes a point against you the insults come out. If you think what I say is wrong, try proving it. I assume we are all adults here, correct?"
But it is "Gary" who has insulted others. Not I. Funny how "Gary" has nothing to say about my being called a "lesbian" and a "pig."
Could this be because he wrote those words?
As far as Natural Law is concerned, those who promote same sex "marriage" were not up to the task of answering the hard questions put to them at another thread at this forum.
And that's hardly "adult." Nor are the attacks which "Gary" has been issuing.
Matlee, since you want to make this about me instead of have a discussion about the thread topic, here are a few observations:
You are a liar.
1. You lied when you said, "Gary, your comments are inappropriate at this forum." My comments are within the lines of the conversation, and the thread topic.
2. You lie again when you quote me as saying I find William's quoting from Sacred Scripture to be somehow "morally offensive,". You completely invented that out of thin air. For the record: Scripture good, unnecessary repetition bad. Got it? Great!
3. You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary.
Matlee, I think you are William. You defend him without any logic, and you say similar things. That makes lie number 4.
I am not going to bother coming back here to post anymore because to be honest, this is the type of freakshow opponents of Catholicism are looking to exploit. I want nothing more to do with it. Good luck with all that hate and deception, I'm sure God will be as forgiving to you as you are to others. At least I hope so... >;)
Gary, your comment that: "You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary."
I am not a liar. I was called a lesbian and a pig. Jay may have deleted the offensive comment. But it was there nevertheless.
Thanks Jay I know. I never said who wrote it. I wrote, "I am not a liar. I was called a lesbian and a pig. Jay may have deleted the offensive comment. But it was there nevertheless."
But "Gary" wrote, "You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary."
I have read the comments written by both Matlee and William and found nothing hateful. Therefore, I find this comment left by Gary to be truly harsh and ugly:
"...this is the type of freakshow opponents of Catholicism are looking to exploit. I want nothing more to do with it. Good luck with all that hate and deception, I'm sure God will be as forgiving to you as you are to others. At least I hope so... >;)"
I wouldn't call this Blog a "freakshow." Nor would I characterize posting quotations from Scripture as "hate and deception."
If what Matlee said was true (that she was referred to as a "lesbian" and a "pig" by somebody), I would tend to characterize such remarks as constituting "hate."
Only by acts of compassion can we be Christ like. Judgment is left for Him, not for any man. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is His way of saying M.Y.O.B.
74 comments :
http://lasalettejourney.
blogspot.com/2007/06/
reasoned-discussion-or-argument.html
Paul, I just read that. I was bothered by that also.
Anyways in response to what I began reading last December, I've been writing more of the positive response we can give those experiencing same-sex attraction.
http://uponchristianhill.blogspot.com/search/label/Church%27s%20teachings%20on%20same-sex%20attraction%2FCourage%20Ministries
Also check this out. I love it.
http://63.147.126.13/ccc/home.asp
I will review those links Renee. Thank you very much. I have visited your wonderful Blog. Pope John Paul II often spoke of the genius of women Renee. Whenever I come across faith-filled women like yourself who are so obviously gifted by the Lord Jesus, I always gain a deeper appreciation for that genius.
Please pray for me. At the present moment, I am under attack again for opposing the anti-Semitism of an organization which claims to be Catholic but which is not in communion with the Diocese of Manchester (in which I reside) or affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church in any way.
God love you Renee.
Also I good read regarding those who expereince same-sex attraction and the Catholic Church is in the second of the two articles in the link below.
http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=1957
"I was incredibly lucky. I did not have to overcome familial rejection when I came out. I didn’t face violence or even much teasing. And, of course, this charmed life made it easier for me to believe that Catholic teaching was not based in hatred. I was equally lucky that the friends whose influence ultimately helped me accept the grace of conversion didn’t focus on my sexual orientation. They knew I was gay, and that I was pretty vocal about it. They tried, when I asked, to explain church teaching on homosexuality, but did it very poorly. I’m glad that they instead wanted to talk with me about the Crucifixion as the reconciliation of justice and mercy, or Creation as an explanation of the goodness and intrinsic, poetic meaning of the physical world. "
The author, Eve has her own blog also.
http://eve-tushnet.blogspot.com
Another interesting Blog to visit. I see the Holy Spirit at work across the internet. Blogs written by faithful Catholics are having an impact.
I also believe a day of persecution is fast approaching. May our witness continue even when we face serious opposition, especially when that opposition becomes violent.
The blood of martyrs is the seed of Christianity. Whether we are called to a dry martyrdom or a bloody one, let us always glorify the Blood of Jesus.
This may be a little off the subject; i'm posting here as it is the current spot on this excellent blog.
I would like to invite any interested to visit this C-Fam webpage, and sign the petition there. It only takes a moment.
As the C-Fam article recounts, the CEDAW treaty is being used by certain U.N. thugs to pressure poor nations to legalize abortion, same-sex marriage, and prostitution. The petition is to urge your Senators to not ratfiy the treaty.
Here's a connection to other comments here: C-Fam is one of those effective Catholic voices, one of the best, in my humble opinion.
Thanks, too, to all you here at DTF.
I think Christ would have preferred us to spend our time spreading joy. He said, "You shall know who comes in my name by the love they bring." This is where our focus should lie.
Of course, without truth there is no love. For Jesus is Truth.
The truth is that love conquers all.
I am John Hosty's mother and how I feel about this is as follows. I feel that God loves us all. He said "He that is without sin cast the first stone" I do not think that anyone on this earth is without sin, everyone has done something that is wrong. I love my son, he has the biggest heart of anyone I know and I am very proud of him for standing up for his beliefs. In fact he is getting married, and I am buying the wedding rings as part of his wedding gift. So don't try to drag the mothers into your fight, they will always love their children no matter what. A bigger person would have an open mind and an open heart. I was raised Catholic and have family members that are nuns and priests so I do believe in God, Jesus and the religion. I hope that you find some piece for the life you lead, with so much conflict and hate it must be hard.
God bless you all,
John's proud Mom
Ann, it is good that you love your son. But love means wishing the best for the one you love. Please read 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Jude v. 7.
The Word of God.
And let us not equate lust with love.
Mr. Hosty's mother has told us that we should be accepting of her son's homosexual "lifestyle" because "everybody has sinned" and because "A bigger person would have an open mind and an open heart."
While it is true that we are all sinners, it is not true that we all engage in (or intend to engage in) mortal sins such as sodomy. This thanks be to God's grace working in our lives. And as far as keeping an open mind and an open heart, G.K. Chesterton once quipped: "Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid."
And a heart which rejects God's Commandments is not a heart filled with love.
Ann,
It is right for a mother to love her son. All of us parents can only hope that our love somehow in some small way reflects the love God has for all of us, His children. I truly believe that all those who genuinely pursue God will find Him; and that God judges us based on where we are at. However God cannot force anyone to go to heaven, which is why it is very important for all of us to ask for mercy.
We all need to remember the words of the prayer that Jesus taught us, and I would emphasize the part, "Thy will be done" which refers to God's will. We truly have to say that, and to mean it, and since God knows everything, we can't fake it (though if you are not sure, I would encourage you to at least try to fake it in the hope of eventually meaning it). You see, if we do not say to God, "Thy will be done", then God will say to us, "thy will be done."
Please ask you son to examine his conscience, and to look inside himself, without any worldly trappings, and ask himself if he is at least trying to do God's will.
God bless,
I would also recommend reading what the Catechism has to say about a CORRECTLY formed conscience.
We are not our brother's keeper. We are called to love God, and to spread his love. These commands are more important than trying pass judgment. My focus is the joy in my heart, and in spreading that joy of Christ to others. People who can't follow that line of logic make me wonder if they understand the joy Christ's peace brings. Perhaps some people just say they are Christian because that's all they know, yet don't understand it.
Anonymous [John Hosty?] wrote:
"We are not our brother's keeper. We are called to love God, and to spread his love."
But we are called to be our brother's keeper. It was the murderous Cain who, when asked where his brother Abel was, responded to God, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
We are indeed called to love God and spread His love. This is why Jesus said, "If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
We are all sinners, and ongoing so. It is a sin to think yourself better than your brother. I see life as a miracle worth celebrating with all who cross my path. It seems you see life as a responsibility to adhere to laws, or suffer consequences. You go ahead and keep your focus, and I will keep mine. In the end we all answer to the same god, and He will judge us all.
I believe He wants us to love one another without judging each other, and in this way we spread the joy of His blessing. God is love, and where there is an absence of love towards homosexuals, another takes its place.
I will pray that love wins out for you, and you are able to spread joy to those whom you despise. Only by humbling yourself in this fashion will you be able to see Christ's true intentions. His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another.
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
The Word of God.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
"His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another."
This seems reasonable, and I can't find a passage in the Bible that tells us to turn our brethren away. Is there one that says homosexuals need not apply?
I don't understand why you people are so bothered by what others do that do not effect you at all. Tell me what is it to you if 2 of the same sex live together? How does that hurt you? Why is it your business to tell others what to do with their life? Why don't you try the old saying "Live and let live" it really works you know. Instead of trying to run everyone else's lives try to live and enjoy your own. Time passes to quickly and before you know it your time is up and what have you done except try to hurt others by trying to make them do as you want them to do. As for God, only he is to judge other men, it is not your job to do it for him. I feel sorry for all of you who are too busy trying to change others that you do not enjoy your own life here on earth. Let God decide who is wrong and who is right on judgement day and enjoy your own life. Leave others alone! You all sound so full of yourselfs that I will not be back here again, it is just a waste of my time. I feel sorry for all of you.
Anonymous [John Hosty?] wrote, "His word lives on in us, through our acts of compassion for one another."
This seems reasonable, and I can't find a passage in the Bible that tells us to turn our brethren away. Is there one that says homosexuals need not apply?"
The Word of God tells us that those who engage in homosexual acts have no place in the Kingdom. This because such people reject God's Commandment on the matter. It is not a question of God rejecting man. It is a question of man rejecting God and His Law of Love: "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
And again:
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
The Word of God.
If anonymous [John Hosty] and his mother Ann believe that they can convince us to reject God's Holy Word, they are wasting their time.
Anon,
If you "believe He[Jesus] wants us to love one another without judging each other", two questions;
1. What do you base this belief on?
2. How do you define love?
While we're waiting for an answer to Jay's excellent question, let's all read Pope Benedict XVI's Encyclical Letter Deus Caritas Est: God is Love to obtain the Church's answer to that question.
While waiting for that answer to my questions on how anon defines love and on what anon bases his beliefs on, we need to also remember that anon was wrong, Jesus never said, "You shall know who comes in my name by the love they bring," which sounds like some modern Jesus Seminar revisionism. Love was not something you bring, love is something you do, it is a verb. Jesus gave the new commandment, "That you love one another, as I have loved you" Jn13:34 and this is how we would be known, and how did Jesus love us? "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jn15:13
"He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." Jn14:21
"The Word of God tells us that those who engage in homosexual acts have no place in the Kingdom. This because such people reject God's Commandment on the matter. It is not a question of God rejecting man. It is a question of man rejecting God and His Law of Love: "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
I think this is more a case of man rejecting man. We are called to love God, and Love our neighbor. We are to be fishers of men, and save souls in His name. That's a little hard to do when you have personally decided for God that someone is not worth your effort. You can identify homosexuality as a sin all you want, it does not erase the fact that the way you conduct yourself shows you to have given up on your charge.
We have been called to spread joy, peace, love, and compassion. This was the gift Christ gave us, and it is for all, even the unworthy.
Genesis 22:2
Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love..."
Love is a verb right? Eeewww!
According to God's Holy Word, those who engage in homosexual acts will not enter the Kingdom. Such people have rejected God's Law of Love. They have said, "My will be done."
And that is what hell is: self will. Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments." This is the test of authentic love.
Again, the Word of God:
"Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.....Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity....Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1: 24, 26-27,32).
Again Anon, define your terms, because it sounds as if you are asking us to accept gay marriage in order to evangelize and to love our homosexual brethren. Criticize us for a lack of charity if you will (try to be specific please), but you are in error if you think we need to deny the Truth in order to love our Neighbor.
And you still have not passed in your homework assignment -
If you "believe He[Jesus] wants us to love one another without judging each other", two questions;
1. What do you base this belief on?
2. How do you define love?
visit my website:
http://sexualintelligence.wordpress.com/
www.Cogitamecummetula.com
July 27th, 2007
26-year old Terry Mangum better get a good lawyer. Or maybe it would be easier for him to just plead good old fashioned insanity.
The Houston man admits to killing 46-year old Kenneth Cummings, a gay man: “I did it. Bottom line is I stabbed him the head with a knife.” Why would Magnum do such a horrible thing? God told him to, of course.
In a jailhouse interview, Mangum claims God sent him on a divine mission to “carry out a code of retribution” and eliminate Cumming’s “sexual perversion”. Talk about perverse. So, does Magnum feel any remorse? Hell no: “I believe with all my heart that I was doing the right thing. I planned on sending him to hell.”
Excuse us while we vomit.
Former gay evangelist Mel White describes Mangum’s defense as “outrageous,” saying:
You’ve got to indict everybody from {Pope} Benedict XVI on down. The church and the Christian right have set up an environment that gays are a threat to the community, and they say this over and over.
…
And because some people take seriously, you have murders like this. This guy is quoting from the rhetoric of the pope and Pat Robertson and the Southern Baptists.
This is a tragic and disturbing story, tragic because Cummings did not deserve to die at the hands of a psycho-killer, disturbing because White makes the outrageous and absolutely unsupportable claim that Pope Benedict said that "gays are a threat to the community." White is the one causing the nausea.
Generally, the sociopath always thinks he's the sane one.
I have often noticed that the homophobes are showing more about themselves than anything else. The way I see it, anyone who spends any time at all working to prevent any group from enjoying equality under the law has issues.
And I have never met a homophobe who didn't also have something against some other minority group as well.
I wonder if anonymous [too ashamed to use his/her real name?] would be so kind as to explain how same-sex marriage may be justified in the light of Revelation and Natural Law?
Perhaps he/she would also like to comment on the murder of Mary Stachowitz at the hands of a homosexual?
Anon,
you still have not defined your terms, but I'd say your idea of love is self-centeredness, and your idea of equality under the law is whatever your lobby group can manipulate for you. Gay marriage in Massachusetts was a triumph of will. Your propaganda machine must now continue in high gear in its attempt to intimidate the rest of the United States and the world into believing they are homophobes if they stand up for the Natural Law and the Historical definition of Marriage that has been the cornerstone of Culture and Civilization.
The fatal flaw in your desire is that your extreme political correctness blinds you and prevents you from criticizing the children of Ishmael - so even if you win, you will lose, and you will lament the day you drove the children of Issac from your midst.
There is no war, only in your mind. Put your hate down and live in peace. Maybe then the full glory of God's love can be revealed to you, and you will understand why Christ would lay down His life, not just for the unworthy, or ungrateful, but for His enemy as well.
The key is love. Approach your troubles from love instead of hate and God will provide the solution for you. Have a little faith, He knows what He is doing. Nothing is out of control, it is all within His will. You do not need to understand God's motivations for what He does, or disrespect His creations. All you need to do is follow, and He will show you the light. He is the Prince of Peace.
William, if it makes you feel better you can call me Matthew, but I will not give you my last name just as you do not give your full name. I have been posting without a name because I want you to focus on what is said rather than who is saying it. I expect that you are only looking for a name so you can dismiss the message, and that makes for poor logic.
Okay Matthew, I repeat:
Would you be so kind as to explain how same-sex marriage may be justified in the light of Revelation and Natural Law?
Perhaps you would also like to comment on the murder of Mary Stachowitz at the hands of a homosexual?
Bad logic? That's your domain.
Matthew,
In the parable of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus says that the enemy is the devil, Mt13:39, so if you are saying that Jesus died for His enemy, the devil, then you wrong. The devil made his choice in eternity, which means that choice was for eternity.
However, the rest of us, the unworthy, our choices are made in time, and time is God's gift to us to repent.
William, personal attacks are another symptom of bad logic. You don't know me, so saying bad logic is my domain is simply rude. You were in fact looking for an easy reason to dismiss my words, say otherwise if I am wrong.
What you are doing is trying to win an argument rather than trying to hold a discussion that brings us all closer to the truth. You have not responded to my points, you are only talking at me instead of with me. In a world with closed minds we all learn nothing.
If we can agree to have a discussion that is based in mutual learning and respect, I'll both to return. Otherwise you have my prayers and my sincere sympathies for what seems like an overactive dislike of homosexuals. This is very unfit behavior for a Christian.
Love the sinner hate the sin, unless they're gay? Not in my Bible. The door must ALWAYS be left open while there is still hope, and the miracle of seeing the light can come late in life for some. You don't have God's permission to turn your back on His commandment to love thy neighbor simply because you think someone is unworthy. If you cannot shake yourself out of this feeling of superiority, it is my concern that those who you claim are going to Hell for their sins will be your neighbors again in the afterlife.
The choice is yours my friends.
Anonymous, you wrote, "Put your hate down and live in peace. Maybe then the full glory of God's love can be revealed to you.." and then you demonstrated YOUR hate by accusing me of "bad logic" because I wondered why you were posting comments anonymously.
I submit that you are the one filled with hatred since you levelled accusations against my person of living in hatred and lacking peace.
And you still haven't answered my questions or Jay's. It's time to put up or shut up as they say.
Anon,
You have defended gay marriage by calling those against it homophobes with issues, yet now you claim we should love the sinner and hate the sin. If homosexual relations are a sin, why should we support gay marriage?
Do you even believe that someone could be eternally cut off and separated from God?
Unless you can clarify these very blatant contradictions, I believe you are simply trying to waste our time? Do tell if otherwise.
As I thought, you recognize that there is no compassion for homosexuals on this blog, or in your heart.
Christ does not give us permission to turn our backs on our brothers simply because we disagree with how they are living their lives. We are called to minister to and give love to the unworthy in the hope that some day they will see the light. For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother. While in deliberate breech of this commandment, you are no better than those you preach against.
The choice, like theirs, is yours my friends, but if you look past what God wants to follow your own hatred, expect to suffer the consequences of that decision.
Anon.
everyday I consider what to expect when I stand in judgment - and with that in mind I simply cannot affirm or confirm anyone in their sin, because I will be judged on my silence as well as what I have said and done.
I would argue that your support for gay marriage is turning your back on our brethren in need.
Take a look at who you stand next to in your support of this parody of marriage that affirms our brethren in their sins. Are you sure that you want to argue with God? Do you want to argue with the Pope? Do you want to argue with the Dalai Lama?
Nice try, but your faux concern for our brethren is not so much useless as it is hateful.
"For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother."
This is a truth that you cannot argue around. If you cannot leave the chance of salvation open enough to try and save souls, it is you we should turn our back on, because you have turned you back on God's will to follow your own feelings.
Goodbye.
Anonymous wrote:
"For some, this understanding comes late in life, and if we give up on them, we break God's commandment to love thy brother."
This is a truth that you cannot argue around. If you cannot leave the chance of salvation open enough to try and save souls, it is you we should turn our back on, because you have turned you back on God's will to follow your own feelings."
Actually, this is sheer rubbish. The Scriptures repeatedly tells us to avoid or reject those who are contumacious and who want to reject God's Holy Word. For example, 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
There is really no way to argue around this. So goodbye anonymous...I will pray for your conversion.
"As for the individual homosexual caught up in this vice, I love him more than ever. For I now have a greater understanding and appreciation of the terrible all-embracing hold that this vice can have on a man and an even greater conviction that one should move heaven and earth to prevent any souls from being sucked into the homosexual vortex." The Rite of Sodomy(pp. xxiii-xxiv) by Randy Engel
How can we be called to spread the good Word yet cherry pick who we help? If we wait for sinners to give up sinning on their own before we reach out, we have not done enough to spread God's will. Drunks continue to sin, yet we do not close our door when they come to it.
"What shepherd will not leave his flock to search for the one gone astray?"
All God's children are worthy of the continued effort no matter the level of their sins. Some learn late in life.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
How can we be called to spread the good Word yet cherry pick who we help? If we wait for sinners to give up sinning on their own before we reach out, we have not done enough to spread God's will. Drunks continue to sin, yet we do not close our door when they come to it.
"What shepherd will not leave his flock to search for the one gone astray?"
All God's children are worthy of the continued effort no matter the level of their sins. Some learn late in life.
One can set up a straw man in the following ways:
1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
2. Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy).
3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5. Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
You both look like children repeating yourselves. Grow up or don't bother posting.
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
I believe Biblical Truth is well worth repeating. And I don't believe doing so is childish. We should never view the Word of the Living God as "childish" or look at those who quote from this Divine Word as being "childish."
The Word of God is truth. Let's embrace it. Not rebel against it.
How perfectly childish. At least anonymous has the common sense to stop the hostility. William, why are you so angry?
I am not angry whatsoever. Again:
2 Timothy 3: 1-5 says: "But understand this: there will be terrifying times in the last days. People will be self-centered and lovers of money, proud, haughty, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, irreligious, callous, implacable, slanderous, licentious, brutal, hating what is good, traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, as they make a PRETENSE OF RELIGION BUT DENY ITS POWER. REJECT THEM."
Likewise, Romans 16: 17 says: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; AVOID THEM."
We are called to avoid such people because they have turned their back on God and His Commandments; His Law of Love.
Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My Commandments."
God's Holy Word condemns homosexual acts as an abomination and says that those who do such things deserve death.
Hateful attacks directed at me will have absolutely no effect. You are wasting your time.
There is nothing hateful about telling someone they are acting like a child when they are in fact acting like a child. You are trying to shout down someone who is in your camp on this issue. All I said was I thought it was childish that you are repeating yourself over and over. Your repetition is making you look like a loon.
Gary, your comments are inappropriate at this forum. There is nothing childish about posting the Word of God on this issue. Sometimes it is necessary to repeat something since there are those who refuse to relect on what is being said.
If you find William's quoting from Sacred Scripture to be "childish" or as being somehow "morally offensive," the solution is painfully simple and obvious to any adult mind: simply stop coming hee to read the comments.
You are coming across as childish yourself.
Matlee, there is nothing inappropriate about what I said. I did not say posting the word of God was childish, I said that repeating yourself over and over was childish.
What's with all the hostility? By the way, you can take your own advice honey and get out if the kitchen is too hot for you.
Get over yourself.
I just scrolled up and saw this:
Anonymous said...
One can set up a straw man in the following ways:
1. Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.
2. Quote an opponent's words out of context -- i.e., choose quotations that are not representative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy).
3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated.
4. Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5. Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked.
Seems pretty appropriate now.
I get the distinct impression that "Gary" is really John Hosty. Wouldn't it be nice if this person could answer the difficult questions put to him regarding same-sex "marriage" and Natural Law in another thread?
Apparently we were asking too much of him.
Careful Matlee. Gary might accuse you of being "childish" for asking a difficult question and your comments will be deleted.
I just cannot understand why my Scripture quotations were deemed "inappropriate" and therefore deleted. Because I posted them a few times? I did this only because Gary and anonymous were not really reflecting on the Scriptures cited.
Apparently the message of those Scriptures was deemed "unbearable."
Matlee, this thread was made to discuss this topic. We can talk here without interrupting the whole blog.
You want to talk natural law so here goes:
"The natural law argument for the existence of God was especially popular in the eighteenth century as a result of the influence of Sir Isaac Newton. Observers concluded that things are the way they are because God intended them to be that way, though He operated outside of the natural law, Himself, as the law giver." -wikipedia.com
Also from wikipedia.com we find:
"Initially drafted by James Madison in 1789, the Bill of Rights was written at a time when ideological conflict between Federalists and anti-Federalists, dating from the Philadelphia Convention in 1787, threatened the Constitution's ratification. The Bill was influenced by George Mason's 1776 Virginia Declaration of Rights, the 1689 English Bill of Rights, works of the Age of Enlightenment pertaining to natural rights, and earlier English political documents such as the Magna Carta (1215). The Bill was largely a response to the Constitution's influential opponents, including prominent Founding Fathers, who argued that it failed to protect the basic principles of human liberty."
In a nut shell, we acknowledge God and then our equality before Him.
I say openly that I do not support gay marriage. I do support treating people with kindness and doing my personal best to be compassionate. Not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy. I notice that whenever someone makes a point against you the insults come out. If you think what I say is wrong, try proving it. I assume we are all adults here, correct?
Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It doesn't work, and it annoys the pig.
Gary, YOU are the only one interrupting this Blog with your hatred.
I recommend a sacramental confession. Your last post accusing Matlee of posting hateful comments is demonic. Not to mention slanderous.
Gary wrote, " I do support treating people with kindness and doing my personal best to be compassionate. Not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy. I notice that whenever someone makes a point against you the insults come out. If you think what I say is wrong, try proving it. I assume we are all adults here, correct?"
But it is "Gary" who has insulted others. Not I. Funny how "Gary" has nothing to say about my being called a "lesbian" and a "pig."
Could this be because he wrote those words?
As far as Natural Law is concerned, those who promote same sex "marriage" were not up to the task of answering the hard questions put to them at another thread at this forum.
And that's hardly "adult." Nor are the attacks which "Gary" has been issuing.
Matlee, since you want to make this about me instead of have a discussion about the thread topic, here are a few observations:
You are a liar.
1. You lied when you said, "Gary, your comments are inappropriate at this forum." My comments are within the lines of the conversation, and the thread topic.
2. You lie again when you quote me as saying I find William's quoting from Sacred Scripture to be somehow "morally offensive,". You completely invented that out of thin air. For the record: Scripture good, unnecessary repetition bad. Got it? Great!
3. You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary.
Matlee, I think you are William. You defend him without any logic, and you say similar things. That makes lie number 4.
I am not going to bother coming back here to post anymore because to be honest, this is the type of freakshow opponents of Catholicism are looking to exploit. I want nothing more to do with it. Good luck with all that hate and deception, I'm sure God will be as forgiving to you as you are to others. At least I hope so... >;)
Gary, your comment that: "You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary."
I am not a liar. I was called a lesbian and a pig. Jay may have deleted the offensive comment. But it was there nevertheless.
matlee, the offensive comment was posted by anonymous.
Thanks Jay I know. I never said who wrote it. I wrote, "I am not a liar. I was called a lesbian and a pig. Jay may have deleted the offensive comment. But it was there nevertheless."
But "Gary" wrote, "You lie AGAIN when you say you were called a "lesbian" and a "pig." Anonymous posted a metaphor of the immovable object. How you get lesbian out of that is almost scary."
I was simply correcting "Gary."
I have read the comments written by both Matlee and William and found nothing hateful. Therefore, I find this comment left by Gary to be truly harsh and ugly:
"...this is the type of freakshow opponents of Catholicism are looking to exploit. I want nothing more to do with it. Good luck with all that hate and deception, I'm sure God will be as forgiving to you as you are to others. At least I hope so... >;)"
I wouldn't call this Blog a "freakshow." Nor would I characterize posting quotations from Scripture as "hate and deception."
If what Matlee said was true (that she was referred to as a "lesbian" and a "pig" by somebody), I would tend to characterize such remarks as constituting "hate."
"Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels." (Hebrews 13:2)
Very true. Also true that angels do not engage in sodomy.
Only by acts of compassion can we be Christ like. Judgment is left for Him, not for any man. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is His way of saying M.Y.O.B.
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