Sep 14, 2006

Begat, Created, or Possessed?

If God is a Trinity, then there have to be distinctions between the three equal persons on the Trinity, and therefore, when the article you sent speaks of these distinctions, I have to ask exactly what those distinctions are. I especially have to ask exactly what do you think Ignatius of Antioch (martyred 110AD) meant, when he wrote:

“There is one God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son.”11

Specifically how does God “manifest” or make obvious Himself, through His Son? I think the only way to do that is not to repeat sending another Angel, as God did in the Old Testament, but to send God, in the person of His eternally begotten Son. Of course this ties back to my earlier argument, how does one Beget in Eternity? Since there is no time in Eternity, you cannot conceive of begetting as a process like it is on Earth. We know God spoke, and things happened instantaneously, indeed, Time started, but before He spoke, he begat his Son, eternally before Time started.

Which brings me to the part of your articles which says that

Ignatius shows that the Son was not eternal as a person but was created, for he has the Son saying: “The Lord [Almighty God] created Me, the beginning of His ways.12

This quote actually helps make the Trinitarian case, because Jesus is quoting Proverbs 8:22-27. Jerome translated this passage as possessed instead of created:

8:22. The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.
Dominus possedit me initium viarum suarum antequam quicquam faceret a principio

8:23. I was set up from eternity, and of old, before the earth was made.
Ab aeterno ordita sum et ex antiquis antequam terra fieret

8:24. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out.
Necdum erant abyssi et ego iam concepta eram necdum fontes aquarum eruperant

8:25. The mountains, with their huge bulk, had not as yet been established: before the hills, I was brought forth:
Necdum montes gravi mole constiterant ante colles ego parturiebar

8:26. He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.
Adhuc terram non fecerat et flumina et cardines orbis terrae

8:27. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law, and compass, he enclosed the depths:
Quando praeparabat caelos aderam quando certa lege et gyro vallabat abyssos

The translation of ‘possessed’ instead of ‘created’ is consistent with the Hebrew: In Genesis when God created the Earth, and created man, the Hebrew word is ‘bara’, but in Proverbs, the word is ‘qanah’. So I have to conclude that this quote does not make the Jehovah Witness case that Jesus is not Divine. The weight of evidence keeps me grounded to the Church’s teachings on the Trinity.

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